I'm sure Hawass would talk to a bunch of kids. What sort of public figure doesn't? Anyway, yeah, guys...as funny as seeing Hawass in a clown suit is, back on topic.

Kmt_Sesh has effectively summed up in a few paragraphs what I have (perhap unsuccessfully) being trying to put across for the last few weeks. I have to side with him here.

If we think about this issue logically however, there still yet be ways for the Egyptian Museum to have its treasures returned, at least temporarily. We must of course make sure that these actions do not jeopardise the objects themselves.

I'm sure that Kmt_Sesh and Claude II will agree with me when I say that the Egyptian Museum in Cairo has more than it can handle. Whilst it has just over half the number of exhibits owned by the British Museum, the Egyptian Museum simply is not currently equipped to care for what it already has. The British Museum, the Berlin Museums and the other major Egyptian Museums around the globe are doing Egypt a favour by preserving her treasures, and until Egypt can cope it would be a crime to return the artefacts. This knowledge gives the SCA of antiquities several viable options, in my opinion, none of which they have (to my current knowledge) ever been hugely willing to attempt. They need both to dramatically increase spending on the museum (possibly through loaning objects to other countries and increasing entrance fees ), and decrease the current number of objects on display in the museum (which can also be achieved by loaning objects, perhaps for a number of months, to other museums).

The EM cannot continue this charade- they are not equipped to care for the objects that they have, let alone more. It would quite literally be treason for any country to increase the already Herculean load on the EM's funds and display areas. If the EM and the SCA were even to go as far as temporarily offering objects to other countries then the global community would realise their grim situation, and these objects might be replaced with ones of more importance. I suggest that it may be possible to let go of numbers of the lesser objects, at least temporarily, whilst the EM recuperates. It is wholly naive to think that the self-proclaimed self-righteous actions of those like Claude II are actually going to be wise in the long run for the Egyptological community, or whether they are actually going to have any effect at all.

First of all I will apologize to you kmt_sesh for not answer your post
in the first place. Yes I do agree with the most people here abut the relics.
But I dont agree with the arguments that they use. When you read abut the British Museum and their display of only 4% its because some of the others
Has used this argument on Cairo Museum. They claimed they only showed abut 50% of their relics.
In the light of that claim I thought that this argument would look pretty
lame when they self only shows 4%.

When it comes to the possibility for Cairo Museum to show more of their
relics, They have several ways to do that. First of all they can take away
some of the relics now on display in favor for "The Bust of Nefertiti" cant see why they could not give the "Rosetta Stone" its proper place in the
Museum. How many of you have recently visit this museum? and can say
with the hand on your heart that they could not host those relics.

I am also in favor for the touring of King Tut to as many countries as possible. Because this ancient history is for the whole world.
Not only a few selected one.

And why should a person that wants to become an Egyptology from ex
Scandinavia have to visit every country on earth to study this relics
when they could be all in Egypt for all to study. I understand that you
all want to have them in your country. If they where in Egypt there would
be alot more competition and less credit for a single country.

Finally abut the issue abut Money.
Yes the Cairo Museum needs more money to be able to care for their
relics and they certainly needs more money if they where to host all key
relics. But this argument for maybe sending home those relics smells more
like your countries need some economic compensate for losing income.
If we look at the fact that only 10% goes to the British museum for other
things then the ancient Egyptian its pretty clear. Then of cause you have to be
pretty stupid to think they do this for the sake of poor Egypt.

In a country where its legal to steel ancient art from another country as long as
you dont sell it. its pretty clear what the holdings are.

The Code of Ethics.
Yes it was adopted in 2000 but have a moral stand for over 4000 years among
the common people all over the world. But if we should go by the role
"Finders keep" then the Rosetta stone should be in French keeping and probably be in Egypt where they put it at first.
The obelisk they transported
back home to Paris is also something they should send back
to the temple it was stolen from.

All those relics where as much stolen as relics are after 1983 just in a moral point of view.

And yes you are right when you say this is a passion for me.
My passion is for the ancient Egypt their way of civilization
their way of living with nature, Their respect for the dead
their knowledge and their excellent art. They hade a structured
way of living with a government and justice system when we where
living in caves. They have give the world several monuments that will
last for ever and prove that mankind can do the impossible.

My respect for the ancient Pharaohs is big I feel that we must assemble them
back in Egypt where they buried them self and kept those relics

Yes they have probably gained what they where looking for in many ways
by being discussed on boards like this but do you really think this is the
kind of immortal they where looking for???

Just arguing the owner right on their Mummies and the relics they left
you should all agree with me when I say that this become pretty lame
when you look at the bigger picture. Who cold ever claim the owner right
of your dead kings and queens??? they lived and died for Egypt.
They constructed those tombs and monuments for us to visit and pay our respect.
We have manage to make this to the less and are now barking like stray
dogs abut the ownership of things we never could own.


Finally to Si-Amun
You are right when you say that I might want them reburied in their tombs.
But I also now at this point its impossible so that have to wait. I also hope that one
they there would be possible in an archeological way to rebuild
the temples and the Pyramids to their original state. But that's also impossible right
now without destroying them. But of cause I dream of a day
when we can really walk in the footsteps of those great people and really
se all relics where they truly belongs.
I now I want see that day but maybe sometime in the future such technology
would be possible. As Seqenenra Tao once dreamed of a Egypt free of
hyksos I to dream of a united Egypt with all of their key relics on display
for the whole world to see. As I told in my story their would probably not
being any debate on this issue if there was not for the courage of the "House of Tao"
I dont now if you have taken your nick from the Priest "Si-Amun" or the son of Seqenenra Tao?

I am sorry for heating up in this debate but its my strong passion for
the ancient Egypt and the history, what they wanted with their lives and dead.
Not what laws that was define later by conquer and tomb robbers.
The whole issue is abut what the history tells us what's right.

Think for a moment feel the sense that in fact are there, What a splendid idea for our rich countries
to build Museums in Egypt and contribute to the summoning of the Pharaohs again on their own soil
where the gods can once again find them.

Now that, Claude II, was a well-reasoned, rational, and intelligent post. I appreciate your effort to write it without the animosity this time, and I can say your argument comes through loud and clear.

You and Psusennes I seemed to concentrate an awful lot on the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. I must stress that I myself have never been to Egypt, but for years I've talked at length with more people than I can count who have been there and have toured that museum. Among this number are Egyptologists, historians, and museum curators. They all universally agree that though it is of course a pleasure just to tour the Egyptian Museum and see its splendid artifacts, the place is overall a terrible, cluttered mess. It requires a thorough overhaul.

But there's not much more one can do with the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, and it's hardly the only such museum in the nation of Egypt. People with whom I've talked have raved about the museum in Luxor, for instance. And again, that's what the current Tut tour is about: to raise the funds necessary to help renovate existing museums and to help build new ones.

And again, the vast majority of museums throughout the world should and will keep the entirety of their Egyptian collections. The SCA has toured every museum with an Egyptian collection--including the Field in Chicago, as I've mentioned--and there is little they want returned. Examples like the Rosetta Stone and Nefertiti bust are rare exceptions. We should all desperately hope Egypt never gets most of these collections back, because that will shut out the study and appreciation of ancient Egypt to most of the people on the planet. I don't know about most of you, but I know I might never be able to afford a trip to Egypt out of my own pocket, so I rely on institutions like the Field for my own study of ancient Egypt, as I'm sure many of you do with collections at major museums near you. Should we return all of ancient Rome's antiquities to Italy, all the ancient Athenian antiquities to Greece, all the Machu Picchu antiquities to Peru? The study of our ancient civilizations would come to a grinding hault.

I would have to agree with the obelisk in Paris, though. I would like to see that returned to Egypt, but not just because it was wrongfully taken. The Parisian smog and pollution are destroying it. And as far as that goes, the Romans were a lot worse--there are numerous obelisks throughout Italy, "acquired" for the pleasure and vanity of Roman emporers. Obelisks in Egypt are actually very rare because most of them are in Europe.

And one final thought. As we debate this heated issue, always bear in mind that the people living in modern-day Egypt are not related to the people of ancient Egypt. The closest comparison we can make is the Coptic Christians of modern Egypt, who are the actual descendants of the ancients (as the Coptic liturgical language is the last remnants of the ancient Egyptian language).

The people of modern Egypt are the descendants of the Arabic peoples who swept through and invaded the Middle East in the 7th Century CE, driving out the Byzantine Empire from Egypt. There is no geneological or physical connection between the ancient and the modern there. So it would be incorrect to say modern Egyptians are looking out for the history of their country because, well, it wasn't their country. What is accurate is that the modern people of Egypt are looking out for the heritage of their country, striving to protect the monuments and antiquities of a civilization that for all intents and purposes ceased to exist about 1600 years ago. And the modern Egyptians have come a long way from the 1700s and 1800s and even the early 1900s, when they couldn't sell off their antiquities quickly enough in their zeal for the money of wealthy westerners. I think the modern Egyptians and folks like Hawass should be applauded for their earnest efforts.

I would not expect foreign nations ever independently to throw money at Egypt for the sake of its museums and historical sites; that's simply not how modern governments work. But that is why organizations such as UNESCO exist, and UNESCO (as a union of countries collectively concerned for the ancient places of our planet) has already done wonderful things for Egypt.

In response to your question about my screen name, I took it from the 21st Dynasty King who tried desperately to improve the failing foreign relations between Egypt and he outside world. He was responsible for saving a lot of royal mummies by taking them from their original burial grounds and moving them elsewhere, in order to stop the Egyptian people destroying their ancestors. All in all quite a fitting name really!

Well I have always argue in this matters like I do here.
But to the issue of affording to go to Egypt,
To probably 99% of the world a trip only for a weekend
to US cost as much as 14 days of luxury stay in Egypt
And what right do your country have to claim the first seats
to become Egyptologist? If the KEY RELICS where in Egypt
then we all have the same Democratic right and possibility
to se them study them.

Please take a virtual tour in to Cairo Museum
http://www.queen-nefertiti.com/cairomuseum.html

When you speak of the average Egyptian like you do
you should think twice, We all should think twice.
Yes they are poor and they have nothing but the day
to earn their next day of living. Its we who encourage
their behavior when we buy those stolen objects.
And if we look in our own back yard we will find that
we treat our own ethnics with lower respect!
And if we ask the common citizen in our country
you should son be aware that we are pretty lonely
in our interests abut ancient Egypt compare to
what common people among us are. But if there
is money and fame to be found all of them would
invest money in "Dog shit" to (a little joke but true)

How bad you like it still Modern politic not
love for the ancient history as you and me dream of
Your museums would not spend a 1 dollar if it did not
bring back at least 2 dollar in exchange.

When it comes to United Nation and Unesco we all now
that your countries signs a lot there but hold almost nothing.
Your countries has played the UN for fools several times
so to hope that the solutions is there is nothing the
rest of the world hold to high, tough we still hopes.....

When I talk abut returning KEY RELICS I talk abut those
relics that has special meanings like the Rosetta Stone
and the abuse bust of Nefertiti. Remeber the Armana deal
or else you can read it at http://www.quee-nefertiti.com
In case of study you could use a replica without no problem
but as we debated before this is abut money and politic.


Yes Si-Amun you have chosen a name that dont fit
your opinion at all? You have chosen a name of someone
who shared my respect and love for those Kings and Queens
just from people like your self. Be cause you can blame
the night diggers as much as you want, but if there was no
buyers there would not be any market.

I think also some of you here seems to change opinion
in this issue as the wind blows, I am sorry for that be cause
there is nothing wrong in having one of your self and it has not
to be among the majority. This is why I lie Si-Amun he stands
strong as rock in hard sea even though he seems to have the majority
with him in this issue

P.S I am planning my second trip to Egypt this year on an avarage
income of a plain worker here in Sweden that says something
abut the low coast it is to travel to Egypt.

Christ, do you ever shut up? Or in fact post very much on anything else? Your posts dont seem at all proportional, thus me assuming you came on here with a political agenda in the first place.

LMAO, I haven't got a vengeance as such... lol. Its only, I thought we had stopped this boring rant after that post you typed but no, he brought it up AGAIN. Can he not just leave it for a bit and perhaps post a bit more on other topics as well? Its just an idea! lol After the posts made by "aka romeo" I think I could take on a fully armourned Rhino and still win! lol. If it were between me and him I dont think I could decide on a winner because although I am enraged, he NEVER could accept defeat! lol, it would go on forever! lol

I've always found half a bottle of gin calms me down considerably! lol, well I am very calm now, just extremely upset by what he has said.