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Ancient Egyptian Forum • View topic - Arguing with Hawass...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:40 am 
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The only things that I know were stolen was Nefertiti's bust which I read in many books and was confirmed on that 'Ramesses: Wrath of God or Man' special in December. And what they said was a woman (don't remember who exactly) stole the bust and took it with her to Berlin in the early 1900's.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:47 am 
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However you want to phrase it, whatever spin-control you put on it, the basic fact is that the Rosetta Stone was taken from the French as a spoil of war. There was no compinsation given, either to the French or to the Egyptians. True, it may have been put in the British Museum to "protect" it, and I agree that it would have been a great error to leave it the Egyptians--who, at that time, were not that interested in their own history. But rationalization does not alter the facts.
The Nefertiti bust was discovered in the work-shop of the official sculptor of the Royal Family at Aketaten. An inspector from the Egyptian government at that time was due to divide up the finds. Things that were unique--of which Nefertiti can claim--were to be kept in Egypt. The discoverers, to hid their find, encased the bust in a layer of Nile mud, so that it looked like a blob of nothing much, but the finders had cleaverly stamped the mud with a royal seal that had been found. The Egyptian offical was told that the blob was to be kept by the German expidetion to study the seal imprints. He let it stay with the Germans. Later, the blob was taken to Germany by the woman who was the second in command of the expidition. It is now considered to be the showpiece of the Berlin Museum.


Last edited by Osiris II on Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:18 am 
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I see that ,more or less, everybody has the same feelings about Hawass, that is that he doesn't hide to be so full of himself and too often completely unfair to the other scholars and egyptologysts from all over the world....
He is managing stuffs that do not belong only to Egypt, but to all mankind....the decisions he takes have strong weight on us all, on everybody...I believe that too often he hides behind the reason that he wishes to give the Egyptology science to the Egyptians and that he uses this according to some special needs....

Talking about museums, I do agree with Psus when he says that foreign museums gave the chance to the Egyptians to become more confident with their own history and to have turism, which is actually of such a great importance to the Egypt people, who are living of this (thanks to this!). Plus, the fact that if it wasn't for us, surely the biggest part of the artifacts and tombs, and temples as well, would have lost.
I only wish to add one thing, that I'm particularly proud of, that is that the Turin collection, which is actually the biggest in the world after that of Cairo museum, is made up of pieces that really belong to the museum itself....no pieces exposed here has been stolen or hidden....
All the pieces exposed in the museums of all over the world have the primary aim to publicize the egyptian art, history and, most of all the turism in Egypt, which is feeding the Country. So I believe that those who still wish to let all artifacts go back to Egypt, they should consider the attraction that foreigners have towards Egypt ( the turism is highly growing there monthly!) is in great part also due to this sort of advertising that expositions and museums make of this really special Country.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:21 am 
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returning
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:13 am 
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:?: So where is the line to be drawn? Do we leave artifacts from multiple cultures for the world community or should it be Egypt for the Egyptians only? There are ethical issues of collection methods, true but AAM and the international groups also are working to define what should be permitted and what must be returned. Hawaas deserves a little respect yes, if for no other reason than the sheer pull he has in the field. Tick him off and nothing leaves Egypt. I do feel sometimes he has too much power over who has access to things, but authority and vanity can become blurred, no?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:21 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:05 pm 
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It's a different story if it's a gift. Nefertiti was taken, not given to Berlin. What triggers my anger with this topic is that Berlin thinks Nefertiti's bust belongs in Berlin. Which it does not! This is all I'm saying cuz I don't want to be hated for my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:20 pm 
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Early in the 20th century--I think it was shortly before WW I--the Germans had excavation rights to the Amarna area. They worked fro several years, doing a lot of "shore-up" work, but not finding any really impressive items--until they started to excavate the studio of the Royal Sculptor. The finds were almost immediate--first the so-called Death masks, incomplete statues and work studies of various people and groups. And Nefertiti. The bust had evidently been on a wooden shelf, it had collapsed, but the bust was not damaged. When the team found it, it had been covered by drifting sand. When it was cleaned, they realized that they had something really unique and unusual--the bust of the queen of one of the most tantilizing and unknown periods of Egyptian history. An inspector was due to "divvy" up the items found--half to the Egyptian Museum, the remainder, if duplicates, to the German Expedition. The bust was liberally covered with Nile mud, until it looked like a blob of mud, nothing more. A royal seal that had been found was impressed on the mud. When the inspector was examing the objects found, the "blob" of mud with the seal impression was shown. The expedition leader told the inspector that although it was a usless blob of mud, the team wanted to sent it to Berlin to study the impression. The gulible inspector granted their wish, and gave it to them. The woman who was second in command of the group took it to Berlin the next day! It's been there ever since, and has become the instantly recognized symbol of Egypt. Was it theft? No really, techniqually. Deception? Absolutely! Should it be returned to Egypt? In my humble opinion, YES!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:24 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:29 pm 
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Last edited by Claude II on Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:33 pm 
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Location: Saqqara... someday...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:53 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:16 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:42 pm 
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